Talk:English Wordbook/A

anent 'AIR: I know "air" is a French root, but it is a perfectly understandable English word. The distinction between "air" and "sky" is a REALLY useful one. So unless you intend on bringing back to life "loft"'s sense of "air", then there really is no better word. Sure, "flyer, skyman", these both work in this instance (despite "airman" being THE plain English word). However, what about when the distinction between sky and air becomes crucial? For instance, I forewhile listed "fish-farming" for "aquaculture". Is this to become "fish-acremanning", or something, because "farm" is a French word? I hope not... I say we put back "airman" (and co), but just shunt it to the back of the list (for not being "pure" English). :) BryanAJParry 23:09, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Aye, Airman is a real word for Aviator, especially in America. I do think Skyman is better, but after pilot, I think Airman is the most common word. I think this is a case of a totally inconspicuous Romance word. Other words for "air" would be quite inelegant. Of course maybe we should omit the entry entirely and allow Romance by default, instead of find "alternative Romance", thus simplifying our filter. I put the word back but it's at your mercy hereafter. ~Inkstersco
 * But if Airman is indeed the plainer, more English word for it than "aviator" (which it is), then why SHOULDN'T it go in the list? Bryan 82.44.212.6 23:47, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Because it's like skipping Charles to get to William. As soon as the rules are broken it's harder to agree on a way of working, or on what the overall goal is. I agree that ideal English is not necessarily 100% Anglish, but I think that Anglish as described here ought not to be Romance. However, maybe we should have a seperate page for Anglicisations: E.g. Duchy-Dukedom ~Inkstersco

What about using 'husbandry' as an alternative for farming. So, another possible word for aquaculture could be 'fish-husbandry'? It is an attested word for farming. 83.100.195.98 14:56, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

BRIGHT I can't seem to find "Bright" with the sense of "one who does not believe in God(s)" in the OED, so I was wundering after the logic of this word. :) BryanAJParry 15:40, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I fixed it to say "without belief".


 * "Bright" is a word that I read in an article for "atheist" used lately in America to avoid the negative stigmas and workplace discrimination, which doesn't exist over here. It's a bit like "gay" for homosexual. I don't think it would be in the OED but it is an established PC term.81.129.64.193 08:46, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

HEARBEAR What's the "bear" mean? BryanAJParry 22:25, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it is akin to German '-bar' which roughly translates as '-able'. Oswax Scolere 22:37, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm... I HATE criticising, but I really hate it. It doesn't exist in English, and is a direct import from German, it would seem. If one REALLY must get rid of -able in favour of something else (I don't see why, tho), then we already have -some. Why this outlandish word? One thing we all agree on is that Anglish is not about Germanising English, but Germanicising. Two totally different things. I would suggest -bear is a tad inappropriate :) BryanAJParry 23:25, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * It is alright to mislike a word! One of our strengths is that we have enough room to let everybody give their thoughts on a word, and that way a writer can choose the one they like best. I don't feel the need to forward one kind of Anglish over another, I only choose for myself the words I like, and let things grow from there.


 * In truth, I don't like '-able' and would like an Anglish word for it. Sadly, I think neither '-some' nor '-bear' fit. I am left only with the thought that maybe we don't always need something like '-able'. I would overbring the following: 'her voice was not audible because of the noise', as something like: 'her speech could not be heard over the din'. I don't know what other tongues do, but this at least lets me write out I thought without having to find a new word. Oswax Scolere 19:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * May I suggest: Hearworthy or hearfast? 81.157.247.141 09:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I think -some fits far better the meaning than -worthy or -fast. I think -some fits best, -fast and -worthy fit less well, and -bear fits not at all. Personally, I shall keep using -some formations. But your solution is a good one, Oswax. BryanAJParry 11:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The wee problem is, -some means capable of doing X, rather than capable of having X done unto it. "-some" means the same as -y "Achey breaky heart". I think the best possible solution is Be-...-some. Behearsome? ~Iain


 * Would it be worthwhile gathering up all known words with the '-some' suffix and analysing what they mean? This way we could sort out whether or not it has the '-able' meaning, and if not, what it can be used for. It may turn out to have a different, though yet useful, meaning. Oswax Scolere 13:16, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree to that. Personally, I have no problem with -able because, in the REAL world, folk don't have a problem with it.... but as far as ANGLISH goes, let us look into all possibilities. BryanAJParry 15:57, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Alright chaps, here's what the OED has to say on the -some, -able matter.

''suffix1, representing OE. -sum, = OFris. -sum, related by ablaut to OS. and OHG. -sam (G. -sam, Du. -zaam), ON. -samr (Sw. -sam, Da. -som), Goth. -sams, used in OE. to form adjs. from nouns and adjs., as fri{edh}sum peaceful, {asg}enyhtsum abundant, ánsum whole, langsum lasting, rarely from verbs, as hýrsum, héarsum obedient. A few of the OE. formations survived in early ME., but only two or three are now in use, as longsome, lovesome, winsome. In ME. a number of new examples appear, some of which soon became obsolete, as beisome, fol{ygh}some, friendsome, lustsome, wlatsome, while others (chiefly dating from the 14th century) have remained current, as cumbersome, fulsome, gamesome, gladsome, handsome, lightsome, loathsome, noisome, wholesome. The early ME. buhsum, buxum is now represented by buxom, in which the suffix is disguised. In the 16th century appear awesome, brightsome, darksome, healthsome, heartsome, quarrelsome, and the unusual formation timorsome. Of later date are adventuresome, bothersome, fearsome, frightsome, lonesome, plaguesome, etc., and various nonce-formations as clipsome, cuddlesome, dabblesome, divertsome, some of which have a passive, others an active, sense. ''a. Fr. -able:{em}L. -{amac}bilem, adj. suffix, the special form taken by the suffix -bili- (see -BLE) when added to vbs. in -{amac}re, Fr. -er. Extended in Fr. to vbs. of all conjugations, -ble taking the place of -nt in pr. pple., thus périss-able, recev-able, vend-able, défend-able, mouv-able. Originally found in Eng. only in words from OFr. but soon by analysis of such instances as pass-able, agree-able, amend-able, treated as a living suffix, and freely employed to form analogous adjectives, not only on vbs. from Fr., but at length on native words, as bearable, speakable, breakable, wearable. This extension seems to be largely due to form-association with the adj. ABLE (to which the suffix is not related), so that eatable, e.g. is taken as eat + able, able to be eaten. The vb. has often a n. of the same form, as in debat-able, rat(e)-able; these lead the way to such as carriageable, clubbable, where the n. seems to be the source, and saleable, in which no vb. exists. Recent usage adds -able even to a verbal phrase as get-{sm}at-able, come-{sm}at-able. Now always with passive sense, but in early words often active, as in comfortable, suitable, able to comfort, suit.'' Hearable: That can be heard, audible. ''Audible: A. adj. 1. Able to be heard, perceptible to the ear. 2. Able to hear. Obs. rare. B. n. [the adj. used absol.] A thing capable of being heard.''

Make of that what you will. BryanAJParry 20:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * No one has followed up the above definitions. However, the above definitions, plus the existance of synonym pairs such as "lovesome" and "loveable", leads me to the conclusion that -some for -able is more-or-less always the right choice. Opinions? Bryan 82.44.212.6 09:46, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I wish it were that simple, but it doesn't seem to be so. Think about Winsome and Winable. X-some seems to mean that the subject is able to do X. X-able seems to mean that the subject can have X done to it. The workaround for this plight is to use be-X-some for X-able. That's the best we'll ever do. However, I don't know whether X starting with a vowel shall be a problem. Is be- ever used before a vowel? ~Inkstersco


 * The "win! in those two words is different. Also, as the OED definitions above say, sometimes -some is active, sometimes it is passive... Bryan 82.44.212.6 23:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I understand that x-some can be passive or active, but -able only means passive, so doesn't have a substitute of equal worth. Maybe would should do the following: Un-X-able = X-fast, like in acid-fast (although unbreakable becomes breakfast : Maybe we could use -y for something. Is "achey breaky heart" passive or active? Maybe if we worked with Be-, -Some , -Fast, Un-, and -Y would could come up with an unambiguous solution. When talking about Winning, I ought to be able to distinguish between the player and the prize. ~Inkstersco

Amazed, amazing
Should amazed/amazing be thought of as unanglish? OED and my old, Webster's wordbooks read that amasian, hence amaze, is attested in Old English. OED reads that the a- prefix is likely intensive, and in Webster's, the intensive a- prefix is said to be from nothing other than Old English. In OED and Webster's, the etymology of maze is unknown, but all close cognates are Germanic.


 * You're quite right. Amaze, whilst not totally uncontroversial in its etymology, is certainly likelily a Germanic word. Bryan 82.44.212.6 22:44, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Addendum: However, because it's etymology is a bit controversial, unlike, say, geason or aghast, it seems reasonable to have it listed. What does everyone else think? Bryan 82.44.212.6 22:45, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Me personally, I see nothing wrong with the word 'Amaze' and its derivatives. Geason and aghast are cool words also, but I think 'amaze' and the rest are perfectly acceptable.83.100.152.173 16:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Abandon
Hi guys! Isn't the infinitive of the second given option "forlose" instead of "forlese"? Padraig 16.06.2006
 * No. ;) :D BryanAJParry 19:51, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Adore - Love
I thought we were meant to bring these things up on the talk leaf before outtaking them, and even then only if there is agreement. Has the policy changed? 15:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi -- I do appreciate the need to discuss stuff and my mentioning of having taken it out was an invitation to discuss it. However, I don't overall think it's good that addition should be made easier than deletion, and if anything I think it should be the other way around -- That things should be discussed before being added, but that's not an established policy at all. Btw, I think that Love is ambiguous enough as it is. ~Inkstersco


 * Hi, I can kind of see your point. I guess love has many meanings, from adore, to even meaning to enjoy something. Besides, I seldomly hear the word adore being used. 83.100.133.219 10:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

=Attestations=

In my scheme these are attested by a major dictionary, or analogous to something attested in such a dictionary, and must be a synonym of sorts. So, for example, Uncleft is an attested English word, but when used for Atom, it is unattested. ~Inkstersco

Note : Try not to bollocks anything up by putting your unattested words in the bracket that colours things blue, and vice versa. ~Inkstersco

=Angry is OE= Well, it was in OE. I'm sorry guys, but can we stop adding alternatives for words which are attested before 1066.... Bryan 82.44.212.6 23:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, and even if it wasn't, Heated is a pretty weak synonym, which might creep into a thesaurus entry for Angry but seems a bit daft as the lone suggestion. ~Inkstersco

I guess it worked then? 83.100.182.173 23:24, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You guess *what* worked? Bryan 82.44.212.6 20:30, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

=Allay=

Allay is not a borrowed word. 83.100.175.11 10:59, 5 February 2007 (UTC)