No edit summary |
(→Change of Words?: new section) |
||
| (25 intermediate revisions by 10 users not shown) | |||
| Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
| + | [[Talk:Rikecraft_and_the_English_Tung/politics|the word ''politics'']] |
||
| − | I'm thinking of overbringing George Orwell's "Politics and the English Language". I'm thinking the name should be overbrought as "Yokecraft and the English Tung". Thoughts? |
||
| + | == Some words needing overbringing == |
||
| − | :I made a start on that, but feel free to do so also and we'll maybe pick the best of each. I suggest that if you do overbring it, you keep Orwell's quoted examples in English. |
||
| + | Here are some words that need to be overbrought: |
||
| − | :I also did the Intro to Origin of Species which is now uploaded. There are many words in that which are not in the wordbook yet, so feel free to cultivate some of the words from there (if you feel they have merit). |
||
| + | vice suffer example numeber refer professor essay communist pamphlet letter |
||
| − | :[[User:81.157.119.117|81.157.119.117]] 06:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC) |
||
| − | ::Only one point, that I think that the word for state / polis ought to be 'ric', and therefore, maybe politics ought to be 'ricescraft'. You needn't follow my suggestion, but in an article (Cicero, I think) I wrote 'ricesman' for 'stateman'. [[User:Oswax Scolere|Oswax Scolere]] 09:29, 30 March 2006 (UTC) |
||
| + | :I really like this idea. What idea? The idea of listing words on the talkleaf that ought to be overbrought. Sometimes, tho, particularly for culture-specific type things, I think we all agree that there need not be any change. To whit, perhaps "Communust" is fine as it is. Anyway. Germanic English is "rime". However, "num(b)er" seems to suffice quite well in more-or-less all other Germanic languages.... Soem suggestions..... Professor might be "highteacher/loreman". "Essay" could be "wranglewrit" ["Writ" we are using for "article", for instance). "Pamphlet" is "leaflet", surely: the two words mean more-or-less the same thing, sorta. Letter is already listed (by me) in the wordbook as "errandwrit"; this was the word in OE. As in the alphabet, it is "bookstave" in the wordbook. Dunno about the rest. :) Bryan [[User:BryanAJParry|BryanAJParry]] 21:41, 24 April 2006 (UTC) |
||
| − | :::I agree. I think the nowa shape of riice, though, would be rike. Right me if I'm wrong. [[User:Bob A|Bob A]] 02:47, 31 March 2006 (UTC) |
||
| + | ::You're right, it is a good thought to list them here, so that we can see where and how the words are written. |
||
| − | ::::I'm not so sure. That's factually accurate, but I thought one of the ground rules was that Anglish uses only existing roots(albeit sometimes archaic\literary) that happen to be of Old English or Germanic origin, without sounding soo foreign, and maybe a few back formations etc. At any rate, I thought me Bryan and Oswax agreed that attested roots are better than non-attested ones, and so with Yoke available, and Rike completely unfamiliar and extinct, it would be a no-contest. I don't think a first-time reader of Anglish should be able to tell that it's an artificial language just by looking at it, and should be left with the impression that it's an obscure dialect of English(rather than Paul Anderson's "what-if" language). Ideally, they'd be able to intuitively understand it also, even though some of the words are invented. Randomly resurrecting Old English words is basically too easy, such that one might as well just modernise Old English, which would be a seperate project. [[User:81.157.119.117|81.157.119.117]] 08:17, 31 March 2006 (UTC) |
||
| + | ::Onto the words: |
||
| − | :::::Yoke is worse because it's a bit nonsensical, and I wasn't familiar with it at all before I read it in the wordbook. Also, rike shouldn't sound holy foreign because of the Dutch word 'reich'. If we're limited to familiar words, it's going to be rather hard. Anyway, you can change it if you think of a better word. [[User:Bob A|Bob A]] 20:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC) |
||
| + | ::'''Vice''' could be replaced by 'sin' or 'flaw'. |
||
| − | ::::::We're not limited to familiar words, but to existing roots. "Rike" is a "what-if" lifted straight from Old English and is a pretty radical addition. That sort of thing has been discouraged this far because it sets the ball rolling toward a Jurassic Park language. Anglish as it appears on this site is a reworking of English as we know it, so as to stretch its Anglo-Saxon resources to the full. I'm surprised Oswax suggested it, as it seems a big departure from what we're used to. [[User:81.157.119.117|81.157.119.117]] 21:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC) |
||
| + | ::'''Suffer''', in this case, could be turned into a transitive verb, and thus given as '...vices which now wrack us'? Or something alike. |
||
| + | ::'''Example''' could simply become 'show' (as a noun). |
||
| + | ::'''Number''', for me, is mostly 'deal', but here it is a verb, so instead 'reckon'. |
||
| + | ::'''Refer''' is maybe best here as 'come back', 'bring up' or 'speak anent'. |
||
| + | ::'''Professor''', like Bryan, I would most likely give as 'loreman', though as a title, it could be 'The Learned'? |
||
| + | ::'''Essay''' could be 'writ' or 'writing'. Is there a need for a specific word? |
||
| + | ::'''Communist''' is far too hard right now to overbring. I settle with Bryan that it is best left. |
||
| ⚫ | |||
| + | :::I hold with Osawx, 'communist" should stand as it is, and the insteadwords he has given are good. I am unsure anent "rikecraft" though. |
||
| − | Did the first two paragraphs(?). I chose the word yokecraft for that politics is groundwise the skill of subjugating folk. At now, I namely need the words for matter, economie (badly), result, cause, argument, fail, professional, and specimen, the last I couldn't overbring at all. [[User:Bob A|Bob A]] 07:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC) |
||
| + | :::The nowlike English word for old English ''rice'' is "rich", as such is akin to Teutish "Reich", Netherlandish "Rijk", and so on. |
||
| − | :Nice start(it's always harder than it looks!). I think, though, that the established method is Lifelore\Lifely, etc, etc, rather than X-Craf-ish and so on. It's not a rule, for there are no real rules, but it's mostly preferred that we avoid the Germany-ish "texture" : "Ichtungwierenheerecraften!", etc. |
||
| + | :::Further more, many many languages keep the greek word. See the end of this leaf for tongues that have a variation of "Politics" http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/politics |
||
| − | :Note: There are words in OOS and in this one that are not yet in the wordbook. |
||
| + | :::And endly, rike/rice/reich/rijk is more akin to english "Empire, Riches, Realm", not politics. Perhaps we should stand with politics? 'Mootscraft' is another idea...[[User:Franz Jericho]] 00:59, 18 May 2007 |
||
| − | :[[User:81.157.119.117|81.157.119.117]] 21:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC) |
||
| − | *wades in like some kind of monster* Sorry I haven't been too busy here lately, folks. The old lorestead is getting in my way. Anyway, on seeing this writ, my first reaction to "rikecraft" was 'what in the eff!?!?'. Howeve,r I don't think it is a bad coining. For what it's worth, the Modern English reflexive of Old English "ri:c" is "rich" (as in "wealthy"). However, the "hard" root does exist. Notably, in the word "bishopric". "Rike" is attested (with the sense, and I quote, " A kingdom, realm, royal domain; also, royal power or estate, sovereignty."), however, this was a northern form whose last attestation seems to have been in the fifteenth century. All in all, I don't think it is the best word for the thing, but it isn't whackoland kind of stuff. What we have, here, is an obscure(ish) word whose meaning has been heavily altered by us. Thus, as I say, not the best word, perhaps, but not TOTALLY unacceptable. Unnamed (Ian?) makes a good point: Anglish is not about a "what if" language. That is a very slippery slope. It is a really interesting project, but it isn't really what Anglish is about. "Rike" is probabl;y borderline. [[User:BryanAJParry|BryanAJParry]] 16:27, 2 April 2006 (UTC) |
||
| + | My thoughts: |
||
| − | :Rich came through old French, so it doesn't count. [[User:Bob A|Bob A]] 21:40, 2 April 2006 (UTC) |
||
| + | argument -> wisdom speech (This seems to be the hardest word to overbring without losing or sorely shifting meaning or thought) |
||
| − | ::With respect, Bob, rich did NOT come thru Old French. Look it up in the OED or some other etymology dictonary. You may be confused because it ends in "ch": loads of Germanic words ends in "ch". This is because Old English palatalised "c" /k/ to a "ch"-sound /tS/ in the context of certain vowels. This was spelt "c" + one of these vowels in OE, but "ch" in Middle and Modern English. Rich is Germanic thru and thru. [[User:BryanAJParry|BryanAJParry]] 10:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC) |
||
| + | preferring -> wanting over |
||
| − | :::I got that from dictionary.com, which says "[Middle English riche, from Old French (of Germanic origin), and from Old English rce, strong, powerful; see reg- in Indo-European Roots.]" and claims it's from "The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition", so blame them. [[User:Bob A|Bob A]] 17:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC) |
||
| + | process is reversible -> happening can be undone |
||
| − | Hey! I don't doubt that ricescraft/rikescraft is a fairly odd word, and certainly pushing things a bit. But 'politics' is a hard word to overbring, and so it is maybe worth bringing in an old root to use in relation to it. I know that it may not work everywhere and for everybody, but it is just that I used 'ricesman' for 'statesman', and so thought this might work in the same way. |
||
| + | |||
| + | specimens -> bit-takings |
||
| + | vices -> unwholenesses, unworthinesses (or -hood may be set in the where of -ness in the foregone words, to look more like other theodisch tunges, and in my feeling this is the next hardest word to overbring) |
||
| − | We do need to be careful with what words we revive, but at least this one marginally exists as '-ric' in 'bishopric', and is well known from German 'Reich'. Anyway, even if we don't use this word, we do need ''some'' word for 'politics'. [[User:Oswax Scolere|Oswax Scolere]] 07:42, 3 April 2006 (UTC) |
||
| + | suffer -> feel wounded |
||
| − | :Oswax, "ricesman" strikes me well, but I think it would make more sense to have it as "rikesman" or "rich(es)man": your spelling of it is a tad inconsistant. :) [[User:BryanAJParry|BryanAJParry]] 10:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC) |
||
| + | examples -> thought-showing bit-takings, thoughty bit-takings |
||
| − | ::Just on the spelling, I would spell both words 'ricesman' and 'ricescraft', and pronounce 'rices-' to rhyme with 'wicks' or 'sticks'. [[User:Oswax Scolere|Oswax Scolere]] 10:58, 3 April 2006 (UTC) |
||
| + | number -> many -ness, -hood, or -th (or meenyth, to have i-loudshifting) |
||
| − | :::Nah. I know English orthography is a tad askew from phonetics, but a small handful of wrongs don't make a right. "Ricesman" creates the mental image of a Chinese farmer with soggy shoes, and "rice" is based on a dead Old English text-to-speech cypher. I didn't know, until now, that Rike is a real word meaning State, which pretty much settles it: Rike is the real word so let's use it (in other words, I've changed my original position on the matter, upon learning that Rike is real). I guess the last time Rike was used it was pronounced Reek-eh. But anyway we all know how those types of continuity mostly worked out, so yep, I think Rike is best. [[User:146.176.49.51|146.176.49.51]] 12:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC) |
||
| + | refer -> bring forth in thought from, bring forth thoughty bit-takings (yes, too long and still overly broad in meaning!) |
||
| − | ::::I don't think that 'rices-' is needfully a bad word, and not tto bad a spelling. This word does exist, and only needs to be extracted from 'bishopric'. But I had never heard of 'rike' before now, and the spelling of that word suggest it rhyme with 'bike' or 'pike'. The extra '-s' is simply a possessive in the same way that 'state' has an 's' added to make 'statesman'. I know 'statecraft' has no 's', but adding it in to 'ricescraft' makes the word flow better than 'riccraft'. |
||
| + | -Nightvid |
||
| ⚫ | |||
| + | |||
| − | :::::Alright, I suppose, but what on Earth is the E for? It only serves a dead method of storing sound on paper, and is very misleading with it there. '''Ricscraft''' is just as good, but C before E always suggests a different sound than the one you want. [[User:81.157.240.215|81.157.240.215]] 17:55, 3 April 2006 (UTC) |
||
| + | == Change of Words? == |
||
| + | |||
| + | Previous consensus was that Communist should be left, since it was found too hard to overbring. However since we now use Band of Workermootly Kithish Commonwealths for the Soviet Union how about "Workermootly" (His words and deeds were Workermootly.), "Workermootman/woman" ("S/he was a Communist", would change to "S/he was a Workermootman/woman"), "Workermoot" (For a specific Communist government, as in "Russland, was a Workermoot until...") and Workermootish (I.E, The Workermootish powers)?[[User:Outermost Toe|Outermost Toe]] 00:58, November 15, 2010 (UTC) |
||
Revision as of 00:58, 15 November 2010
Some words needing overbringing
Here are some words that need to be overbrought:
vice suffer example numeber refer professor essay communist pamphlet letter
- I really like this idea. What idea? The idea of listing words on the talkleaf that ought to be overbrought. Sometimes, tho, particularly for culture-specific type things, I think we all agree that there need not be any change. To whit, perhaps "Communust" is fine as it is. Anyway. Germanic English is "rime". However, "num(b)er" seems to suffice quite well in more-or-less all other Germanic languages.... Soem suggestions..... Professor might be "highteacher/loreman". "Essay" could be "wranglewrit" ["Writ" we are using for "article", for instance). "Pamphlet" is "leaflet", surely: the two words mean more-or-less the same thing, sorta. Letter is already listed (by me) in the wordbook as "errandwrit"; this was the word in OE. As in the alphabet, it is "bookstave" in the wordbook. Dunno about the rest. :) Bryan BryanAJParry 21:41, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
- You're right, it is a good thought to list them here, so that we can see where and how the words are written.
- Onto the words:
- Vice could be replaced by 'sin' or 'flaw'.
- Suffer, in this case, could be turned into a transitive verb, and thus given as '...vices which now wrack us'? Or something alike.
- Example could simply become 'show' (as a noun).
- Number, for me, is mostly 'deal', but here it is a verb, so instead 'reckon'.
- Refer is maybe best here as 'come back', 'bring up' or 'speak anent'.
- Professor, like Bryan, I would most likely give as 'loreman', though as a title, it could be 'The Learned'?
- Essay could be 'writ' or 'writing'. Is there a need for a specific word?
- Communist is far too hard right now to overbring. I settle with Bryan that it is best left.
- The others I don't have any good thoughts on. Oswax Scolere 07:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
- I hold with Osawx, 'communist" should stand as it is, and the insteadwords he has given are good. I am unsure anent "rikecraft" though.
- The nowlike English word for old English rice is "rich", as such is akin to Teutish "Reich", Netherlandish "Rijk", and so on.
- Further more, many many languages keep the greek word. See the end of this leaf for tongues that have a variation of "Politics" http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/politics
- And endly, rike/rice/reich/rijk is more akin to english "Empire, Riches, Realm", not politics. Perhaps we should stand with politics? 'Mootscraft' is another idea...User:Franz Jericho 00:59, 18 May 2007
My thoughts:
argument -> wisdom speech (This seems to be the hardest word to overbring without losing or sorely shifting meaning or thought)
preferring -> wanting over
process is reversible -> happening can be undone
specimens -> bit-takings
vices -> unwholenesses, unworthinesses (or -hood may be set in the where of -ness in the foregone words, to look more like other theodisch tunges, and in my feeling this is the next hardest word to overbring)
suffer -> feel wounded
examples -> thought-showing bit-takings, thoughty bit-takings
number -> many -ness, -hood, or -th (or meenyth, to have i-loudshifting)
refer -> bring forth in thought from, bring forth thoughty bit-takings (yes, too long and still overly broad in meaning!)
-Nightvid
Change of Words?
Previous consensus was that Communist should be left, since it was found too hard to overbring. However since we now use Band of Workermootly Kithish Commonwealths for the Soviet Union how about "Workermootly" (His words and deeds were Workermootly.), "Workermootman/woman" ("S/he was a Communist", would change to "S/he was a Workermootman/woman"), "Workermoot" (For a specific Communist government, as in "Russland, was a Workermoot until...") and Workermootish (I.E, The Workermootish powers)?Outermost Toe 00:58, November 15, 2010 (UTC)