Talk: Richcraft and the English Tung

I'm thinking of overbringing George Orwell's "Politics and the English Language". I'm thinking the name should be overbrought as "Yokecraft and the English Tung". Thoughts?

I made a start on that, but feel free to do so also and we'll maybe pick the best of each. I suggest that if you do overbring it, you keep Orwell's quoted examples in English.

I also did the Intro to Origin of Species which is now uploaded. There are many words in that which are not in the wordbook yet, so feel free to cultivate some of the words from there (if you feel they have merit).

81.157.119.117 06:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Only one point, that I think that the word for state / polis ought to be 'ric', and therefore, maybe politics ought to be 'ricescraft'. You needn't follow my suggestion, but in an article (Cicero, I think) I wrote 'ricesman' for 'stateman'. Oswax Scolere 09:29, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I think the nowa shape of riice, though, would be rike. Right me if I'm wrong. Bob A 02:47, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. That's factually accurate, but I thought one of the ground rules was that Anglish uses only existing roots(albeit sometimes archaic\literary) that happen to be of Old English or Germanic origin, without sounding soo foreign, and maybe a few back formations etc. At any rate, I thought me Bryan and Oswax agreed that attested roots are better than non-attested ones, and so with Yoke available, and Rike completely unfamiliar and extinct, it would be a no-contest. I don't think a first-time reader of Anglish should be able to tell that it's an artificial language just by looking at it, and should be left with the impression that it's an obscure dialect of English(rather than Paul Anderson's "what-if" language). Ideally, they'd be able to intuitively understand it also, even though some of the words are invented. Randomly resurrecting Old English words is basically too easy, such that one might as well just modernise Old English, which would be a seperate project. 81.157.119.117 08:17, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Yoke is worse because it's a bit nonsensical, and I wasn't familiar with it at all before I read it in the wordbook. Also, rike shouldn't sound holy foreign because of the Dutch word 'reich'. If we're limited to familiar words, it's going to be rather hard. Anyway, you can change it if you think of a better word. Bob A 20:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

We're not limited to familiar words, but to existing roots. "Rike" is a "what-if" lifted straight from Old English and is a pretty radical addition. That sort of thing has been discouraged this far because it sets the ball rolling toward a Jurassic Park language. Anglish as it appears on this site is a reworking of English as we know it, so as to stretch its Anglo-Saxon resources to the full. I'm surprised Oswax suggested it, as it seems a big departure from what we're used to. 81.157.119.117 21:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Did the first two paragraphs(?). I chose the word yokecraft for that politics is groundwise the skill of subjugating folk. At now, I namely need the words for matter, economie (badly), result, cause, argument, fail, professional, and specimen, the last I couldn't overbring at all. Bob A 07:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Nice start(it's always harder than it looks!). I think, though, that the established method is Lifelore\Lifely, etc, etc, rather than X-Craf-ish and so on. It's not a rule, for there are no real rules, but it's mostly preferred that we avoid the Germany-ish "texture" : "Ichtungwierenheerecraften!", etc.

Note: There are words in OOS and in this one that are not yet in the wordbook.

81.157.119.117 21:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

• wades in like some kind of monster* Sorry I haven't been too busy here lately, folks. The old lorestead is getting in my way. Anyway, on seeing this writ, my first reaction to "rikecraft" was 'what in the eff!?!?'. Howeve,r I don't think it is a bad coining. For what it's worth, the Modern English reflexive of Old English "ri:c" is "rich" (as in "wealthy"). However, the "hard" root does exist. Notably, in the word "bishopric". "Rike" is attested (with the sense, and I quote, " A kingdom, realm, royal domain; also, royal power or estate, sovereignty."), however, this was a northern form whose last attestation seems to have been in the fifteenth century. All in all, I don't think it is the best word for the thing, but it isn't whackoland kind of stuff. What we have, here, is an obscure(ish) word whose meaning has been heavily altered by us. Thus, as I say, not the best word, perhaps, but not TOTALLY unacceptable. Unnamed (Ian?) makes a good point: Anglish is not about a "what if" language. That is a very slippery slope. It is a really interesting project, but it isn't really what Anglish is about. "Rike" is probabl;y borderline. BryanAJParry 16:27, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Rich came through old French, so it doesn't count. Bob A 21:40, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

With respect, Bob, rich did NOT come thru Old French. Look it up in the OED or some other etymology dictonary. You may be confused because it ends in "ch": loads of Germanic words ends in "ch". This is because Old English palatalised "c" /k/ to a "ch"-sound /tS/ in the context of certain vowels. This was spelt "c" + one of these vowels in OE, but "ch" in Middle and Modern English. Rich is Germanic thru and thru. BryanAJParry 10:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I got that from dictionary.com, which says "[Middle English riche, from Old French (of Germanic origin), and from Old English rce, strong, powerful; see reg- in Indo-European Roots.]" and claims it's from "The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition", so blame them. Bob A 17:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the source you quote is right. You say !rich" cannot count as an Anglish word because it came thru old French. HOWEVER, the word "rich", pronounced that way and spelt "ric(e)", existed in Old English. Note your quote above says it came from French from a Germanic source AND from Old English. It is often difficult to tell exactly which parts of which senses of a word came from x source, and which came from y. Suffice it to say, even if *some* (parts) of the senses came from Old French, that still wouldn't mean it was not good Anglish. "Rich" is a Germanic root, and most, if not all, of that word came from Old English. To simplify it to a gross level, "rike" was merely the northern form of "rich". BryanAJParry 08:09, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey! I don't doubt that ricescraft/rikescraft is a fairly odd word, and certainly pushing things a bit. But 'politics' is a hard word to overbring, and so it is maybe worth bringing in an old root to use in relation to it. I know that it may not work everywhere and for everybody, but it is just that I used 'ricesman' for 'statesman', and so thought this might work in the same way.

We do need to be careful with what words we revive, but at least this one marginally exists as '-ric' in 'bishopric', and is well known from German 'Reich'. Anyway, even if we don't use this word, we do need some word for 'politics'. Oswax Scolere 07:42, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Oswax, "ricesman" strikes me well, but I think it would make more sense to have it as "rikesman" or "rich(es)man": your spelling of it is a tad inconsistant. :) BryanAJParry 10:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Just on the spelling, I would spell both words 'ricesman' and 'ricescraft', and pronounce 'rices-' to rhyme with 'wicks' or 'sticks'. Oswax Scolere 10:58, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Nah. I know English orthography is a tad askew from phonetics, but a small handful of wrongs don't make a right. "Ricesman" creates the mental image of a Chinese farmer with soggy shoes, and "rice" is based on a dead Old English text-to-speech cypher. I didn't know, until now, that Rike is a real word meaning State, which pretty much settles it: Rike is the real word so let's use it (in other words, I've changed my original position on the matter, upon learning that Rike is real). I guess the last time Rike was used it was pronounced Reek-eh. But anyway we all know how those types of continuity mostly worked out, so yep, I think Rike is best. 146.176.49.51 12:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that 'rices-' is needfully a bad word, and not tto bad a spelling. This word does exist, and only needs to be extracted from 'bishopric'. But I had never heard of 'rike' before now, and the spelling of that word suggest it rhyme with 'bike' or 'pike'. The extra '-s' is simply a possessive in the same way that 'state' has an 's' added to make 'statesman'. I know 'statecraft' has no 's', but adding it in to 'ricescraft' makes the word flow better than 'riccraft'.

Again, I have never heard of 'rike', and can't find it anywhere. Oswax Scolere 13:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I suppose, but what on Earth is the E for? It only serves a dead method of storing sound on paper, and is very misleading with it there. Ricscraft is just as good, but C before E always suggests a different sound than the one you want. However, Dom means the same now as Rike once did, and is the more obvious and less cryptic than anything we've discussed this far. My order of preference is 1.Domscraft 2.Rikescraft 3.Ricscraft...Fourth and ludicrous are Ricecraft, ricescraft, etc. One might think that Dom is ambiguous, and therefore undesireable, because it can mean Condition. However, the same can be said of State. User:81.157.240.215|81.157.240.215]] 17:55, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

The e is there because the i is long. It was long in OE, and I see no reason why it would have shortened before the GVS.

As a non suffix, I believe -dom would be dome, since the vowel was long. Anyway, domecraft may work, but it doesn't sound as wordcrafty (domcraft is obviously worse). Bob A 04:44, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

But we are using Ric from the living word Bishopric, not directly from Old English. We're only really allowed to work with existing morphemes(even if we have to rescue some from obscurity, such as Wight). Ric exists, but Rice doesn't. With this in mind, an E doesn't enter into the picture. As for Dom, it doesn't matter what the vowel "was", because we are not resurrecting Old English. IMO Domcraft doesn't sound bad, and ricscraft is also okay. 81.157.240.25 18:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

What is the point of e? That is craziness. Why co-opt the Old English spelling? What is the purpose of that? If we decide to represent /tS/ current "ch" as "ce" in Anglish, then "rices" makes sense, otherwise it is absurd. And if you mean "rices" to rime with "likes", as you indeed do, Oswax, then the spelling is even more absurd, for in Old English this combination was pronounced like Modern English "ch". I noted you spelt "munk" as "munc", before, based on the Old English example. That was another case where I edited the spelling to "munk". Why co-opt the Old English spelling? Spelling it -nk is how we do it in English, and there is no real reason to suppose we wouldn't do that even if it weren't for 1066 and all that. Let us not increase the laff=ability factor of this project by coming up with groundless and off-the-wall spellings. "Ric exist, rice doesn't": "Rice" does exist.... as "rich". This word doesn't mean what we are aiming for, and the spelling is different, so there is no way "rice" can be acceptable. I agree it doesn't matter what the vowel was in dom. but I don't feel too great using a bound morpheme "-dom" as the root in a word. At least "ric/rike" has the benefit of being close to a well-known forran word (reich). Oswax, Rike is in the OED. I'll post the definition in a sec.

I agree wholly. Let's just use either Rikecraft or Ricscraft and do away with the scatty "what-if" nonsense. Incorporating OE is bad enough, but directly lifting the orthography is pointless craziness. It was the phonetic code of that time, nothing more. ~Iain(who you replied to, but can't always use his own PC)

OED Definitions

Because I said I would (above),. and because I have access to the OED online, I will post some information from it. :) ~ means a word is archaic/obsolete.

Also, let me note now that the non-affix form of -dom is "doom".

Ric

-ric, suffix in abbotric, bishopric, etc.: see these words and RICHE n.

Riche, Rike

~riche, ~rike [Common Teutonic: OE. ríce, = OFris. rîke, rîk (mod.Fris. ryk), MDu. rike, rijc, ric (Du. rijk), OS. rîki (MLG. rike, ryke, LG. rîk), OHG. rîchi, rîhhi, etc. (G. reich), ON. ríki (Norw. and Sw. rike, Da. rige), Goth. reiki, a derivative from the stem of reiks RICH a.]

   A kingdom, realm, royal domain; also, royal power or estate, sovereignty.

<snip: quotations running from Beowulf to c. 1470>

b. The kingdom of God or of heaven. <snip: quotations running from 900-1440ad>

Rich

rich, a., adv., and n.

[Com. Teut.: OE. ríce, = OFris. rîke, rîk (mod.Fris. ryk, rik-, {dag}rijck), MDu. rijke, rijck, etc. (Du. rijk), OS. rîki (MLG. rîke, LG. rîk), OHG. rîchi, rîche (G. reich), ON. ríkr (Norw. and Sw. rik, Da. rig), Goth. reiks, believed to represent an early Teutonic adoption of Celtic riix = L. reex king.

 In ME. the use of the word may have been reinforced by F. riche (= Sp. rico, It. ricco), itself of Teutonic origin. This would help to explain the early disappearance of the northern form rike.] 

I. adj.

   ~1.    a. Of persons: Powerful, mighty, exalted, noble, great. Obs.
 In many OE. and ME. passages it is difficult to decide whether this or sense 2 is mainly intended.

<quotes from 900-1535>

b. ~Of things: Powerful, strong. Obs. <1000-1470>

2. a. Having large possessions or abundant means; wealthy, opulent.

<900-1862>

   b. Of places, countries, etc.: Abounding in wealth or natural resources.

<1250-1859>

The rest of the rich entry is quite familiar to us in terms of meaning

Bishopric

[OE. bisceopríce, f. bisceop + ríce realm, province. Cf. ON. biskups-ríki.]

   1. The province of a bishop; a diocese.

 2. The office or position of a bishop.

~3. Overseership, office.

~4. High-priesthood

~5. The seat or residence of a bishop.

Dom (suffix)

[OE. -dóm = OS. -dóm, MDu. -doem, Du. -dom, OHG., MHG. -tuom, G. -tum.]

   Abstract suffix of state, which has grown out of an independent n., orig. putting, setting, position, statute, OHG. tuom, position, condition, dignity, in OE. dóm, statute, judgement, jurisdiction, f. stem dô- of DO v. + abstract suffix -moz, OE. -m, as in hel-m, sea-m, strea-m, etc. Frequent already in OE. as a suffix to ns. and adjs., as biscopdóm the dignity of a bishop, cyningdóm, cynedóm, royal or kingly dominion, kingdom, ealdordóm the position or jurisdiction of an elder or lord; {th}eowdóm, the condition of a {th}eow or slave; fréodóm, háli{asg}dóm, wisdóm the condition or fact of being free, holy, or wise. The number of these derivatives has increased in later times, and -dom is now a living suffix, freely employed to form nonce-derivatives, not only with the sense of ‘condition, state, dignity’, but also with that of ‘domain, realm’ (fig.). See in their alphabetical places alderdom, Anglo-Saxondom, boredom, Christendom, cuckoldom, dukedom, earldom, freedom, kingdom, martyrdom, popedom, sheriffdom, thraldom, wisdom, etc. Examples of nonce-words appear in the quotations.